Army of None: Top Ten Military Recruiter Lies

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From Alternet.org:

Editor’s Note: The following is excerpted from Army of None: Strategies to Counter Military Recruitment, End War and Build a Better World published by Seven Stories Press, August 2007. Reprinted here by permission of publisher. Copyright © 2007 Aimee Allison and David Solnit

Top military recruitment facts

1. Recruiters lie. According the New York Times, nearly one of five United States Army recruiters was under investigation in 2004 for offenses varying from “threats and coercion to false promises that applicants would not be sent to Iraq.” One veteran recruiter told a reporter for the Albany Times Union, “I’ve been recruiting for years, and I don’t know one recruiter who wasn’t dishonest about it. I did it myself.”

2. The military contract guarantees nothing. The Department of Defense’s own enlistment/re-enlistment document states, “Laws and regulations that govern military personnel may change without notice to me. Such changes may affect my status, pay allowances, benefits and responsibilities as a member of the Armed Forces REGARDLESS of the provisions of this enlistment/re-enlistment document” (DD Form4/1, 1998, Sec.9.5b).

3. Advertised signing bonuses are bogus. Bonuses are often thought of as gifts, but they’re not. They’re like loans: If an enlistee leaves the military before his or her agreed term of service, he or she will be forced to repay the bonus. Besides, Army data shows that the top bonus of $20,000 was given to only 6 percent of the 47,7272 enlistees who signed up for active duty.

4. The military won’t make you financially secure. Military members are no strangers to financial strain: 48 percent report having financial difficulty, approximately 33 percent of homeless men in the United States are veterans, and nearly 200,000 veterans are homeless on any given night.

5. Money for college ($71,424 in the bank?). If you expect the military to pay for college, better read the fine print. Among recruits who sign up for the Montgomery GI Bill, 65 percent receive no money for college, and only 15 percent ever receive a college degree. The maximum Montgomery GI Bill benefit is $37,224, and even this 37K is hard to get: To join, you must first put in a nonrefundable $1,200 deposit that has to be paid to the military during the first year of service. To receive the $37K, you must also be an active-duty member who has completed at least a three-year service agreement and is attending a four-year college full time. Benefits are significantly lower if you are going to school part-time or attending a two-year college. If you receive a less than honorable discharge (as one in four do), leave the military early (as one in three do), or later decide not to go to college, the military will keep your deposit and give you nothing. Note: The $71,424 advertised by the Army and $86,000 by the Navy includes benefits from the Amy or Navy College Fund, respectively. Fewer than 10 percent of all recruits earn money from the Army College Fund, which is specifically designed to lure recruits into hard-to-fill positions.

6. Job training. Vice President Dick Cheney once said, “The military is not a social welfare agency; it’s not a jobs program.” If you enlist, the military does not have to place you in your chosen career field or give you the specific training requested. Even if enlistees do receive training, it is often to develop skills that will not transfer to the civilian job market. (There aren’t many jobs for M240 machine-gunners stateside.)

7. War, combat, and your contract. First off, if it’s your first time enlisting, you’re signing up for eight years. On top of that, the military can, without your consent, extend active-duty obligations during times of conflict, “national emergency,” or when directed by the president. This means that even if an enlistee has two weeks left on his/ her contract (yes, even Guard/Reserve) or has already served in combat, she/he can still be sent to war. More than a dozen U.S. soldiers have challenged “stop-loss” measures like these in court so far, but people continue to be shipped off involuntarily. The military has called thousands up from Inactive Ready Reserve — soldiers who have served, some for as long as a decade, and been discharged. The numbers: twice as many troops are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan per year as during the Vietnam War. One-third of the troops who have gone to Iraq have gone more than once. The highest rate of first- time deployments belongs to the Marine Corps Reserve: almost 90 percent have fought.

Counterrecruitment for a better world

Ready to create a truly grassroots, people powered movement? Anti-war activism is changing. The familiar sights and sounds of large protests are giving way to quieter, but far more resonating, one-on-one work in classrooms, career centers, and communities. Whenever you hear people decry the lack of large-scale protest in the United States, even as the latest polls show more than 60 percent of people are opposed to the current war in Iraq, remember that the model for effectively challenging war is taking a different shape.

People from all walks of life are finding inspiration and success in working locally to educate students and mobilize against military recruitment where it happens. We can see counterrecruitment asserting itself as a viable movement as independently organized actions in Seattle, Austin and Los Angeles contribute to a national context in which public schools around the country limit military recruiter access, a huge success by any measure. Schools and communities are now considering deeper questions about the increasing militarization of our culture and recognizing the need for schools to teach and weave peace into the minds and aspirations of our children. We believe that 100,000 marching one day every six months is not as effective as 1,000 people talking to students every day.

In January 2006 the National Security Advisory Group, which includes former Secretary of Defense William Perry and former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, issued a report entitled “The U.S. Military: Under Strain and at Risk.” The report predicted a major recruiting crisis, pointing out that fewer than needed recruits, as well as first-time enlistees, could result in a “hollowing” and imbalance in the Army.

The fact is, at the end of 2005, the active Army fell 6,627 recruits short of its annual goal of 80,000. In addition, the Army Reserve fell 16 percent behind its recruiting target for the year, and the National Guard 20 percent short of its annual goal. Today approximately 9,000 soldiers are not permitted to leave the service because of “stop-loss” orders, which retain soldiers on active duty involuntarily after their period of enlistment is complete. Another 2,000 soldiers have been involuntarily recalled after leaving active Army service.

Despite this compulsory service, the Army Reserve has trouble achieving its target numbers. After the 2005 recruiting disaster, the military pulled out all stops in an effort to “make quota” in 2006. Army brass replaced the Army Recruiting Command’s top officer in October 2005 with Stanford-educated Maj. Gen. Thomas Bostick. “A lot of concerns, I think, that the parents and applicants have are about Iraq and Afghanistan,” Bostick told the Tampa Tribune in October 2006. They also replaced Leo Burnett, their lead public relations agency, who created the “Army of One” campaign, with McCann-Erickson, who after a $200 million contract and year of research came up with “Army Strong” as the new recruiting slogan.

In their comprehensive new strategy, the military added 1,200 new recruiters and spent millions on a public relations blitz that included TV ads, video games, websites, cell phone text messages, helicopter simulators in the back of 18-wheelers, internet chat rooms, sports and public event sponsorships, and even ads on the ticket envelopes for Greyhound Bus lines (“This ticket will take you to where you are going, but the National Guard will take you to where you want to be”).

The Army also increased its relationship with NASCAR, the National Hot Rod Association and the Professional Bull Riders Association. The plan calls for recruiters to visit schools and malls a few days before an event, offering free tickets and the chance to meet famous drivers or bull riders.

In addition, the military dramatically lowered its educational and test standards and other qualifications. The U.S. Army recruited more than 2,600 soldiers under new, lower-aptitude test standards in 2006. They allowed neck and hand tattoos, increased the allowable age to 42, increased the enlistment bonus up to $40,000 and offered $1,000 to soldiers who persuaded friends to sign up. They have granted an unprecedented number of “moral character” waivers; around 17 percent of the first-time recruits, or about 13,600, were accepted under waivers for various medical, moral or criminal problems, including misdemeanor arrests and drunk driving. But even that was not enough to “meet quota.”

So, they also lied. From 2004 to 2005 the Govern ment Accounting Office found 6,600 allegations of recruiter crimes. Incidents included concealing medical information that would disqualify a recruit; making false promises and helping recruits get around test requirements. In 2006 the pressure was even greater, and seen in an ABC television investigation from Nov. 2, 2006, that sent undercover students into ten recruiters’offices in New York and New Jersey.

The program reported that more than half of the recruiters were “stretching the truth or even worse, lying.” They found “nearly half of the recruiters who talked to our under-cover students compared everyday risks here at home to being in Iraq.” A Patchogue recruiter was caught saying. “You have a 10 times greater chance of dying out here on the roads than you do dying in Iraq.”

It also reported that “some recruiters told our students if they enlisted, there was little chance they’d go to war. One recruiter told a student his chances of going to war were “slim to none.”

After all this, the military claims to have met its 2005-2006 goals of recruiting 80,000 people to fill its ranks. It has provided no independent verification of its alleged statistics, but it has launched a major public relations effort to counter the bleak news from the year before.

The Armed Forces Journal reported in March 2006 that recruiters “face an increasingly reluctant pool of potential recruits, opposition from anti-war protesters and perennial bureaucratic inefficiency in the recruitment system.” Scrambling in all of these ways to meet their numbers, the Army, more than ever before, needs fresh blood — recruits straight out of high school.

Is counterrecruitment just a way to end the war in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Counterrecruitment is not simply a tactic to end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is a broad-based, strategic approach to challenging the roots of unending war and militarization. The full potential of a progressive peace and justice movement will only be realized when there is an observable link between efforts to stop war and efforts to address inequality in class, race, ethnicity, immigration status and other socioeconomic factors that determine who ends up being sacrificed in our government’s wars.

As recent statistics demonstrate, there are limits to how far Bush and the neocons can go with their plan for global hegemony when the resources for it are running dangerously low. Fortunately, the peace movement is in a position to further diminish those resources. If we apply ourselves to countering military recruitment, it is in our power to both limit the government’s capacity to wage new wars and build a stronger base to challenge the nation’s spending priorities. Simply put, counterrecruitment is a strategic and effective way to challenge the pro-war, anti-education priorities of our government.

War and empire

As U.S. Marine Corps Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler put it in 1933, “There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.”

Racket is one term, empire is another to describe why the U.S. government spends $441 billion a year on a military of over two and a half million soldiers (2,685,713 with reserves), and why it has more than 700 military bases spread across 130 countries with another 6,000 bases in the United States and its “territories.”

Understanding what military recruits are used for in the world, understanding war, and creating viable alternatives to both are essential if we want to break out of the deadlock of militarism. Since the collapse of the “other superpower,” the Soviet Union, “empire” has become a common term among both critics and advocates referring to the unparalleled U.S. system of economic, political, cultural, and military domination of the world. The New York Times Magazine ran a 2003 cover story titled “The American Empire (Get Used to It.)” describing the United States as a reluctant but benevolent global empire. While Bush claimed in his 2004 State of the Union speech, “We have no ambitions of empire,” months later Karl Rove snapped at a New York Times reporter: “‘We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality.”

Some see the start of American empire in the wake of Second World War or after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1989. Others trace it back to the invasion and conquest of numerous indigenous nations in North America from the 17th century onward, the development of a slave economy with tentacles reaching into Africa, and the 1848 seizure of Mexico’s northern half, which is now the Southwest. Another wave of aggression abroad began in the 20th century.

Smedley Butler describes the U.S. military’s role in this emerging empire: “I served in all commissioned ranks from second lieutenant to major general. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high-class muscleman for Big Business, for Wall Street, and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.”

The modern-day version of “war as a racket” and gangsterism for capitalism can be seen in the occupation of Iraq. Critics call the U.S. war in Iraq a failure, but behind the scenes, it has established several permanent U.S. military bases, allowed corporations like Halliburton to make billions from unfulfilled contracts to reconstruct war-destroyed schools, hospitals, power systems and infrastructure, and is in the final process of turning control of Iraq’s vast oil resources over to war profiteers such as Chevron.

The U.S. occupation’s “Provisional Authority” under Paul Bremer also laid the legal groundwork for much of the Iraqi economy to be privatized and then taken over by U.S.-based corporations. Thus Butler’s racket and its toll abroad. What does it cost us at home?

The price of two and a half million soldiers, aircraft carriers and military bases across the planet, and a massive array of weapons of mass destruction is high. It saps resources for healthcare, education and housing. It also requires keeping the domestic population in check through propaganda and the corrosion of civil liberties and human rights. Stifling domestic dissent, criminalizing immigrants, and torturing and illegally imprisoning citizens of other nations have all been stepped up under the guise of the so-called War on Terror.

In his book The Empire Has No Clothes: U.S. Foreign Policy Exposed, Ivan Eland writes, “Intervention overseas is not needed for security against other nation-states and only leads to blowback from the one threat that is difficult to deter — terrorism.

In short, the U.S. empire lessens American prosperity, power, security and moral standing. It also erodes the founding principles of the American Constitution.” As we write this book (late 2006) nearly 3,000 U.S. soldiers and over 200 soldiers from other occupying countries have been killed in Iraq, at least 20,895 U.S. troops have been wounded, and a new Johns Hopkins report puts the number of violent Iraqi civilian deaths since the 2003 invasion at more than 600,000.

War’s side effects are bleak for the environment and human society; its direct and intended effect is mass death. Down the current road of imperial dominance and warfare at will, the use of weapons of mass destruction is nearly inevitable, with apocalyptic consequences.

But there are alternatives to the expense of maintaining a military and the atrocity that is war. One that has been developed over the last 50 years is called social defense. Brian Martin, Australian scholar and author of Social Defense: Social Change, describes social defense as unarmed “community resistance to aggression as an alternative to military defense. It is based on widespread protest, persuasion, noncooperation and intervention in order to oppose military aggression or political repression. There have been numerous nonviolent actions, to be sure, some of them quite spectacular, such as the Czechoslovak resistance to the 1968 Soviet invasion, the toppling of the Marcos dictatorship in the Philippines in 1986, the Palestinian Intifada from 1987 to 1993 and the collapse of communist regimes in Eastern Europe in 1989.”

Imagine if even a fraction of the resources put into military defense were available for the general population to organize social defense.

Replacing global empire with domestic democracy and well-being requires redefining democracy — pursuing ways to shift decision making and power from corporations and government to “we the people.” It’s not enough just to oppose something.

We need to envision, educate about, and then actually organize alternatives to the system of empire and war, to corporations, and to the lack of democratic participation in decisions that shape our lives and communities. What begin as pragmatic actions, like keeping youth from joining the military, are most effective when they have as their end the transformation of the root causes of war, undemocratic governance, and injustice. Every immediate action, when understood and explained as part of a bigger picture, can be another step toward this longer-term goal of getting to the roots of our problems and building a better world.

Today’s movement

Arlene Inouye, who began her activism during Vietnam, continues her work today in the Los Angeles Unified School District, where she founded the Coalition Against Militarism in our Schools (CAMS). Her support of a bright, young student named Sal illustrates how counterrecruitment works simultaneously to resist war and build alternatives.

Arlene says, “Sal is a bright JROTC student who lacked support for success in school and beyond. His father was deported to Mexico about two years ago, and he was told by the military recruiter that if Sal enlisted, his father could come back to the United States. His father begged him to enlist after high school. Sal later learned that the military was lying and that he couldn’t help his father come home.”

During the spring of 2006 there were student walkouts and marches supporting immigrant rights throughout Los Angeles. Arlene explains, “The activism around immigrant rights helped Sal to see the hypocrisy of fighting in a military that is being sent to the border and has been reported to shoot down undocumented people who try to cross.

“During a rally, Sal took off his JROTC uniform in front of the press, encouraging other students to resist war and drop out of JROTC. Unfortunately, most won’t because of concerns about their grades. This student who is articulate and smart is failing school and lacks the support he needs. I have mobilized help for him at the school and call him regularly. He just got back from a peace camp given by our partner organization, and that was a powerful experience for him.”

Creating a supportive community to enable Sal’s dissent, and help him forge an alternative path, is at the heart of counterrecruitment. As demonstrated by Sal’s example, the best movement is as much about envisioning and building a new world as it is about resisting the injustices of this one.

For more information on Army of None, visit the website.

Army veteran Aimee Allison has led school and community counterrecruitment activities over the last decade. David Solnit is the editor of Globalize Liberation: How to Uproot the System and Build a Better World. For more information on Army of None, visit the website.
© 2007 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/62945/

159 Responses to “Army of None: Top Ten Military Recruiter Lies”

  1. SFC Hollis Champlain Says:

    Please have any of your website browsers email me or call me if they would like to actually talk to a real 36 year old Army guy from VA who was a recruiter for 36 months in Los Angeles, CA. I would love to have a dialogue on anything recruiting related.

    • GEZA Says:

      yeah I would love to be in Army. You stand good for your words to back them up. My whole family has been in military since WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf. I come from large family, grandfather still alive ww2 vet, my aunt sgt in the gulf they all got some stories. WE NEED TO TALK. I WANT IN THE ARMY, MY FREE CHOICE AS AN AMERICAN IS TO SERVE WITH HONOR. DON’T DISAPPOINT ME I NEED TO TALK TO YOU.

  2. SGT GRISWOLD Says:

    Its funny how you fail to mention the if you qualify comments for the ACF. The MGIB is very clear on how it works 12 cedit hour will get you your sum stated for that month. and why your 1/4 or 1/3 get out forfieting there benifits well, that is simple, they may have done drugs, assualted someone, or any other violation of the UCMJ. get your facts right before you continue to embarass yourself.

  3. SFC Smith Says:

    I am not a recruiter but I have served in the Army for 18 years. I used my GI Bill benefits to pay for my degree and so have other countless other soldiers I know. These benefits are guaranteed to you and the terms of how the money is payed is straight foward. For you to sit here and say the majority of people never receive their benefits is false. The only way you don’t receive the benefits is choosing to not use them or be dischardged under less than honorable conditions. And by the way, the job you choose when you enlist is the job you train for. I have not met anyone in the Army who did’t receive the training for the job they choose (it is in writing). It sounds like this website has its own issues with omitting facts and stretching the truth.

  4. Jackie Says:

    My boyfriend is in the Army Reserves and got home from training in July. He was promised a 10,000 $ bonus when he was done. It is now December, its almost been a half a year, and still no bonus. I’m starting to believe its a lie.

  5. sam Says:

    I served in the Army and paid money into the GI Bill. After discharge I filed to collect and was denied. I ended up getting enough money from Pell grants, but that was years ago. Now the Bush Admn. has cut Pell grant funding. What are the kids to do now?

    And you’re dead on about the recruiters lying. They are very, very slick. Do not believe a word they say. They will take you to lunch, buy you a pop and give you candy, no shit. Then you’re screwed for eight years when you thought it was for three or four. Go to college instead.

  6. SFC Steve Says:

    I don’t know when 47,7272 enlistees signed up, but you guys need to check that stuff. You’re talking about serious life issues. The Army has not had 47K joining for many years. All services (reserve included) have not had 477K join in a single year ever.
    1 in four enlistees getting out with less than honorable is not true. 1 in 3 getting out early included people getting out to go to college or attend West Point as well as switching to another service, but is still completely false.
    Lastly, there are only seven “lies” recruiters tell. How can that be the top ten. This is the simply the most poorly prepared webpage I have ever visited. Thank you for your time, and I’m proud to serve my country to continue giving you the right to whine about it.

    P.S. If no one enlists, you will be drafted. You really ought to reconsider your idiocy!

  7. SFC Steve Says:

    By the way, “sam”. If you didn’t get your GI Bill, please contact the VA. If they’re no help, contact me. My email is sgtsteve1775@cs.com. Either you got kicked out or denied your benefits before you paid for them. I would be happy to help you out as best I can.

  8. Mike Furr Says:

    This site is run by and for pussy wimps. Grow some balls or leave america faggots

  9. MSG DYKES Says:

    I have served this country and you for over 20 years, 11 years spent outside the Unites States, my wife has served over six years in the Army and is now in the Air National Guard, she deployed and was not even an american citizen.

    Your site is not telling the truth, you must have done very little work to come up with the information you put on here, your data is way off.

    I believe in peace and I also believe that most in the military do also, I think it is ashame that you want to bring up your children believing that this world of ours is a safe place, it’s not I have traveled all over it.

    My wife is going to college for nursing and the military is paying 100% tuition and over $1,850.00 per month for 48 months of college, she has earned this by serving this country.

    If you want to tell lies then keep up the good work if you want to tell the truth then make sure you research the truth, you owe it to your followers.

    We will see if you print this.

  10. TimH Says:

    SFC Steve said on January 10, 2008 at 8:15 pm:

    > Thank you for your time, and I’m proud to serve my
    > country to continue giving you the right to whine about it.

    Dear SFC Steve – Thank you for your service. My only reason for coming to this web page is that my 17 yr old is saying he wants to enlist, and I am doing research. Knowing the dire straits of the current military (without a draft), I suspect all recruiters, because I know they are desparate.

    You are serving your country to maintain our right to whine about it–yes. I ask that you consider what our President has been doing for the past 8 years. No administration has ever done as much to destroy our Constitutional rights that this one. Fourth Amendment? Nearly wiped out. Habeas Corpus? Wiped out for some, and can be single-handedly wiped out by the President for all–without Congressional approval. Military Commissions Act, etc. it is all in danger. Personally I want our military men and women to know that while you are fighting for our “freedom”, the government is doing its best to take it away.

    Thank you and God bless.

    • U.S.M.C. Fos. Says:

      Okay but what are we going to do when our government and everyone else’s has our freedom also?

  11. hunterseeker Says:

    Great site. Thanks for visiting mine. Have put a link to yours so other will know of your site.
    Hunterseeker

    • U.S.M.C. Fos. Says:

      This is not a good site and if you read you could obviously find most of the lies. God dang thank the ones that actually have the balls to serve your country and do not bash them. You should not even endorse the ones who bash them. If you hate it so bad leave the country. Goodbye.

  12. PROUD Army Veteran Says:

    I’m a woman who served 10 years in the Army. You guys who started this website are a bunch of sissy punks who are too scared to get off your mommy’s breast and do something besides whine about things you know NOTHING about. You would get your ass beat by the real men AND women in the Army. I spent ten years defending your right to be stupid scared Punks! Next time, check your “statistics” and facts before you decide to talk shit. I hate loosers like you.

  13. Martha Says:

    I always hear from military people that they have been defending our rights, but while they were busy invading Iraq (who never attacked us), our Constitutional rights were lost at home. How do they plan to get them back?

    • ArmyGreens Says:

      Martha, here’s how my dad describes it. One day, you see your neighbor’s house getting overrun by snakes. They’re everywhere! The porch, the kitchen, the couch, the bedroom, the water sources, everywhere. You have the means to kill all the snakes but that’s their problem. So you leave them alone. The next day, your other neighbor’s house is being overrun with snakes. The first house has turned into a breading ground and power house for the snakes. Neighbor 1 can’t help and neighbor 2 doesn’t have the same resources to kill snakes as you do. You know they’ll be overrun, but hey, not your problem. The next day you wake up to snakes in your bed. You’re not too worried because you have snake-killing abilities unlike your neighbors, so you kill them. Unfortunately, after days and days of waking up to new snakes in your bed, you realize that the snakes are breading and feeding in your two neighbors’ houses and that you’ll endlessly be fighting snakes in your own house until you run out of snake-killing product. If only you would have helped your first neighbor to fix the snake problem from the start, all this wouldn’t have happened. So how does this relate? The insurgency in the Middle East is the snakes. We are protecting our freedom by supporting the Iraqi government in it’s attempts to rid it’s country of insurgency. We are helping our “neighbors” to secure life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, so that their land won’t continue to be a breading ground for the insurgency that could eventually threaten our boarders. No, Iraq didn’t attack us, but we’re not fighting Iraq. We were in Iraq fighting the insurgency and training the Iraqi army to fend for themselves. Unfortunately, Obama pulled out troops out way too quickly, and the Iraqi army was left unprepared for our pullout. Though they’re uniting in the face of ISIS, ISIS would never had been as bold and forward if we wouldn’t have left Iraq. That means instead of the 100 or so deaths that would have occurred during May – June 2014, now 2500 civilians are dead and that number grows daily. We should be fighting snakes because who knows where the ISIS will go next.

      • Benji Says:

        1st off, there were no insurgents in Iraq to fight before we invaded. Secondly the “insurgents” aren’t all terrorists. Obama pulled the troops out too quick? The agreement with Iraq was done by Bush before Obama ever stepped into office. If an Army who has been trained by the US Military for ten years compared to the 10 to 17 weeks our troops get, they just don’t want their freedom. There has been a civil war in the middle east for over 3,000 years, it certainly won’t end in our life time. Not sure where you served in Iraq, but when I was there 100’s of civilians were dying everyday already, it’s called sectarian violence, they hate each other. The majority of ISIS that are fighting now, are the same people we were paying millions to not to fight us. Complain all you want, if you honor your end of the contract, they honor theirs. The least you can do is actually check your facts, they are not even close, but keep up your scare tactics, some dumb fools will believe you. ARMY STRONG and DAMN PROUD of IT!

  14. Donald Says:

    Most of you are full of you know what…no bonus well lets see he could get a bonus if he scored high enough on the AQFT and qualified for that job. Goes to the MEPS flunks out and scores 49 or below no bonus and has to pick a different job and crys foul on the recruiter, not his fault you cant pass a simple test of intelligence. Also if the only reason you are joining the Army is to receive a bonus well dont bonus goes away college gets boring and all you do anyway is complain and try to find ways to cost the taxpayer money to lie yourself out of the Army…IF YOU SERVE, SERVE BECAUSE YOU ARE SERVING THE GREATEST NATION ON EARTH AND YOU ARE PROUD!!!!!!OH YEAH YOU CAN WRITE THIS WITHOUT FEAR OF SOMEONE COMING INTO YOUR HOME AND CUTTING OUT YOUR TONGUE BECAUSE WHAT WE DO…AND MARTHA YOU OBVIOUSLY NEED TO GET OFF YOUR FATA$$ AND DO SOMETHING STOP PUTTING OFF ON ANOTHER PERSON THATS YOUR PROBLEMS NOW

  15. SFC Craig Says:

    “Don’t Enlist, Resist”…..Where do you find these words from the “Cracker Jack Box”. First, I have been in the United States Army for 22 years. That’s right 22 years since I was 18 years old after high school. Am I a dumb guy, not really cause I was offered two scholarships upon graduation of my high that I attended. Sure the recruiters will say some things, but you also have to do your homework before saying “Sign me up”. Especially nowadays. Back in my day we didn’t have Google or a computer like most household families have. I wasn’t a rich kid, so their were a few reasons why I join: 1) Wanted to travel the world-I did(1st assignment after basic and AIT was Germany), 2) Maturity and wisdom for the first 3 years(Contract), 3) Education (College). I wasn’t whining about deploying or going to war. Back than Russia was still kicking. I (Re-enlist) again for a $20,000 dollar bonus. And yes I receive half after my school and $2,000 dollar for the next five years. Did I know I was going to the Gulf War after I receive that Big Bonus??? Not at all….Did I complain, not at all. I am a third generation of my family that has serve or is still serving in the military. You are always going to have Wars, Conflicts or problems in any country. Deploying happens….And some still haven’t deployed in 25 years…. I have been 7-8 times already.

    Bottom line is this:

    1) Job Security
    2) Education
    3) Medical and Dental Benefits
    4) Decent Pay
    5) Traveling (Germany, France, England, South America, Asia just a few to mention)
    6) Meeting new people
    7) Maturity/Wisdom
    8) Promotions
    9) Parties
    10) Deploying(Tax Free on your pay, receive more pay, and fighting for a cause)

    I know some of you don’t agree on many of my areas that I brought up. Which is find. I have been in a very long, long time. And yes, I will retire and no I wont have to work at Wal-Mart as a “Greeter”.

  16. marcel pete Says:

    these are the men and women defending your country and your right to live and be free. defending the right for u to be even writein this shit and not have a bullet in your head. u daisy pick tree luggers need a reality check if we didnt have a army u would be dead or running and hiding for your life. u better be glad we have soldiers. And for the record i going to become one so hate it im the reason your alive u bitch.

  17. KLS Says:

    It’s sad that so many Americans spend so much time trying to find reasons not to serve our country. It disgusts me when I see things like this. So many people turn their noses up at the thought of them or their kids joining the military. Yet, you want to live in this country and receive all of the freedoms most of the world doesn’t. You also feel that this is an entitlement and not a right. What if everyone that does serve felt this way? We would not have a great all volunteer Army. We as Americans can be so spoiled and self-centered sometimes. I think it should be mandatory in this country that everyone serve at least 2 years in the military. You shouldn’t get to sit back on your lazy scary asses and receive the privileges of this country for free. Cowards. I served 4 years and will be re-enlisting when I complete my degree next summer paid for by…….OMG the G.I. Bill! My husband continues to serve on his 10th year. I’ve been to Iraq once and he’s been twice. As a former soldier myself I’ve heard so many soldiers who after joining claim…my recruiter lied to me about this or that. Their claims actually don’t even turn out to be lies. Things like, “I got this shitty job, he didn’t even offer me the good jobs”. Well, guess what you have to have a qualifying score to even be considered for those jobs. If you weren’t offered them, the standards say you probably weren’t capable. Most of them just get to basic and can’t cut it and say anything including lying on their recruiter to get out. I don’t care what anyone says, there isn’t another job with more pride, experiences, or benefits in this country than the military. Whether you’re using it as a stepping stone or as a career path. If more people enlisted the damn unemployment rate wouldn’t be so high, and I wouldn’t be paying taxes supporting others. Get off of it.

  18. Darian W Says:

    Are whining about how nobody appreciates you, equating service to the political class with service to the country, using poor grammar, and calling people who disagree with you wimps instead of making logical arguments the kind of skills you learn in the military? Or are they just the only way you can support absurd claims like saying a tool of imperialism is a good thing?

    The US military does not protect freedom. It is part of the United States government, the institution that does the most harm to the freedom and prosperity of Americans. It is supported by theft and exploitation called taxation and economic policy. It is a driving force in the global military empire that bankrupts America and inspires foreigners to target Americans for murder. And yes, military recruiters often lie.

    I support the troops who renounce the war machine in thought and action.

  19. DarianWorden.com » Blog Archive » Fight for Liberty, Not for Empire Says:

    [...] updating the flyer, I came across a blog post on counter-recruitment. In case you are unaware, counter-recruitment is a direct action strategy to [...]

  20. Jim Nolan Says:

    Let’s cut the shit: you will get money from the federal government if you sign a contract that says you get that money. If you do not get that money, join the lawsuit and plan on waiting for about five years before you see any of that money (if ever).

    If you’re thinking about joining for money, you’re like the vast majority of high school graduates in that you’re unsure about your future and how you’re going to attain your goals, and the military seems to offer job experience and adventure. If you want adventure and to serve your community, become a fire fighter! Become a paramedic! And with all irony intended: become a job counselor!

    When my head drill sergeant asked how many out of my platoon joined for the money, almost everyone raised their hand and the rest were lying. (If you happen to be a flag-waving kill-‘em-all type, seek professional counseling as soon as possible; you are psychotic, uninformed, and likely need medication. Alcohol works for most.)

    But before you enlist out of high school, consider a few things:
    1. Your recruiter has a quota to meet and doesn’t give a flying fuck about you. The entire goal of the recruiter is to maintain or increase the productivity in his or her area of responsibility (say, a school district) and unless you happen to be recruited by someone other than a careerist, the future of his or her career is entirely contingent upon either happening to find a fat target like a flag-waving kid whose mother didn’t graduate from college (the Dept of Defense does market research like any other private corporation; the factors I’ve listed here, along with English proficiency, are a few of the major things that the DoD thinks makes you a fat target), or to convince you that you need the military to fulfill your goals.
    2. If you do the math, you will be paid less than minimum wage; pay raises for enlisted soldiers haven’t kept up with inflation for years. This is something that a few of my friends and I realized when I was in Iraq, so that’s including hazardous duty pay and all the extra goodies. This is probably true for several ranks beyond that of E-4 (my rank at the time).
    3. There are other ways of getting money for college and the only thing you need to do to find these resources is talk to your school counselor or, better yet, do the research yourself. If you’ve kept your grades up, done fairly well on the SAT/ACT, and done a little bit of community service, for the love of all that is holy GO TO COLLEGE!
    4. The skills that you learn in the military are very rarely directly applicable towards the industry to which you may think it does when your recruiter is sweet talking you. (Some notable exceptions to this include obtaining some kind of paramedic certification for the 91A/W MOS.) There are entire books written on how to “adapt” military MOS training to the “civilian side” (like when you’re trying to write a resume in after you ETS in six years); being a guardsman avoids this issue somewhat but there are other considerations even if you think this is going to be your path (some listed below).
    5. GO TO COLLEGE!

    There’s an entirely different set of considerations beyond the most common fiscal ones I’ve addressed above:
    1. You may be put in situations in which your survival instincts are not compatible with your personal morality or ethical guides (Example: Maintain a checkpoint at which there is a real possibility that you will accidentally fire on civilians because of the perceived threat that a speeding vehicle represents; something for which you will not likely be punished, but will live with for the rest of your life.).
    2. You will likely be asked to participate in what has been agreed upon by the vast majority of international rule of law experts to be an illegal occupation (Iraq, in case you’re not up on current events.). In fact, this isn’t just likely, it is damned near certain. It is even more certain that you will in some way materially support the occupation. In other words, according to international law and the treaties to which the US is bound via the Constitution, you will be considered a war criminal. Prosecution, however, is less likely; if you want to be a criminal and actually make money, become an entrepreneur like TuPac or Al Capone.
    3. If you are female, you will be sexually harassed. There is no way of avoiding this fact (although some cope with it by ignoring it or denying it). The instance of rape among military personnel is far higher than among the general US population for both men and women. The numbers are at http://www.stopmilitaryrape.org.
    4. The military will put you where they want you, and do with you what they want because when you sign your enlistment contract you (your body–fingernails, skin, hair, reproductive organs, etc.) become government property. If you get a sunburn, for example, you won’t necessarily but can be punished for damaging government property (just one example).
    5. GO TO FUCKING COLLEGE! Or, learn a trade, join a union, and do what my buddy did and make more money than most 1st-year college graduates can even dream of! The possibilities for your life are so endless you would–at the very least–be wasting 8 years of your life by signing such a bullshit contract (every contract is for 8 years, by the way).

    And as for the jokers (some have posted above) that think that they can logically reconcile the fact that they’re soaking up federal funding by being in the military and therefore supporting the most inefficient and costly US enterprise–the occupations of Iraq/Afghanistan and their $3 trillion price tag–you are the true enemy of the people that want this country to be truly free, and I hope one day you can pierce the thick layer of denial that your lifestyle has developed (an ontological trait allowed by some creative blaming, might I add) because I know that these few words won’t do anything but enrage you much like fire enrages zombies. SLOGANEERING IS FOR SOPHOMORIC OSTRICHES; YOU ARE THE ENEMY!

    And if you’re a veteran and think the war is bullshit (and have read this far!) try reading Gen. Smedley Butler for starters. He’s a kick and funny, too. He was at the trail end of the anti-imperialist movement that gained momentum when the US went to war with Spain over the Philippines, etc. Dedicated patriots like him were gradually weeded out, and now look where we are!

    • U.S.M.C. Fos. Says:

      You know what? I hope no body joins anymore and your retarded *** gets drafted! With no benefits!

  21. SFC ADRIAN VILLARREAL (US ARMY) Says:

    I HAVE NOT HAD A CHANCE TO FULLY GO THROUGH THIS ENTIRE SITE. IN FACT, I RAN INTO IT BY ACCIDENT. I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THIS, THOUGH…

    I AM IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH THIS WEBSITE. THERE SHOULD BE NO RECRUITERS FOR ANY BRANCH.

    WE SHOULD JUST START DRAFTING AND END ALL THE CONFUSION!

  22. Recruit-2009 Says:

    People, stop arguing. Nobody will ever agree with one another, that’s part of human nature, but at least we can learn to co-operate with one another. Through co-operation, we will prospher. Do you think that the founding fathers of the USA, sat around saying, “No,sir the army lies”, or “The Army is giving you your rights”. No they did not, even though they had many disagreements, they came together, had deliberate discussions and debates, and formed this great country we call the United States of America. Yeah so we may have had some outstanding conflicts with certain groups of people or individuals, but in the end we come together and grow from it. All i’m trying to say is, leave the high School attitude in High School and grow up and support your country, and if you don’t like something about what is going on in it, don’t sit back and complain irritably, go out and voice your opinion. Although it may not change the world in your eyes, you may be influencing the younger generations, like me to go out and voice our opinions.
    Thanks for everyone’s time
    U.S. Army recruit-2009

  23. SFC Army Says:

    Darien W
    I dare you to tell a Soldier or a Marine that they do not defend our country and I will guarentee that you will have to defend yourself

    • Army Wife Says:

      AMEN! Funny how this is posted on the internet. Just take it to your local recruiting office and tell them how you feel! I bet these assholes will be running out the door faster than the shit flying out of their mouths!

  24. joseph Says:

    this page is ridiculus…. I love this country and fighting for its freedom.. i also beleive in freedom of press… but to publish something public and it not be true should be punishable…i your stats are not up to par then dont publish it!!! if you are going to influence some weak minded perosn opinion have the moral obligation to make sure u got your facts straigh, idiot

  25. Tina Says:

    An Army recruiter stole my 17 yr old son. I would not consider this recruiter a “Soldier” I feel he is an “Enemy”. He lied to my son with unrealistic promises such as a high paying job, bonuses, lap tops and so on. He was so slick as he was able to manipulate my son in to thinking that his own mother was “sick, dumb and stupid”. If the recruiters are in such a need to make money they should consider encouraging the government to utilize US jailed criminals to join the Army. If they need killers and persons in need of money they have both in one shot. Finally, if the Army was so wonderful with so many wonderful benefits why are the recruiters trying to make money through lying to our children. I hope they all rot in hell!!

    • Army Wife Says:

      Your son could have said NO at any time. The one rotting in hell will be you for posting such nonsense. Obviously your son wanted to join or he’s a big pussy and couldn’t say no. Not everyone is a mama’s boy and maybe you’re so damn crazy he wanted to get away from your ass.

      • Abused Army Wife Says:

        Army wife, how long have you been one? I was for 5 years, and 2 iraq deployments. And raising a child by myself. Do you know what I get? an ex-husband with ptsd who believes I’m out to get him because I constantly ask him to get help because of his short temper that led to domestic violence charges. The Army trains you to be a well rounded liar where the soldier themself doesn’t know reality from fantasy. Don’t worry Army wife, you’ll regret saying those nasty words eventually. Tina my ex is now an army recruiter, most recruiters have a lovely background by the end of their recruiter contract I promise you that. My ex’s station commander just filed for divorce from his second wife. Support your son in his decision or you will lose him because he has been brainwashed, luckily he’ll snap out of it.

      • char Says:

        Wow, I am not an American, but you sure do your country proud with these responses! And, hell is reserved for the unsaved.

      • Evelyn Minnick Says:

        Dear army wife, everything concerning your reply testifies as to why you might want to consider if you are qualified to do so before proving you are not. First, investigate the subject of moral values, secondly, consider the idea of developing your own identity. Lastly, curse words together with name calling will not educate, or increase communication skills. Both are attributes exemplified by qualified military leadership fostering both trust and respect. Your reply indicates you have nothing to offer this discussion. My intent is not to insult you. Truthfully, I am ashamed as an american to read your response. I am very sad as a result of the lack of shame exhibited. I am disgusted when I observe the arrogance displayed during what once was known to be offensive…

    • sdm Says:

      Last time I checked. If your son was under 18 he could not sign without you signing consent. So the stealing idea you state is now false. If your consent was forged you could have had a lawyer clear it up in five minutes flat as a false enlistment. Again kinda kills your statement doesn’t it?

  26. Master Chief Says:

    Why is it that the students, enrolled in college along with me, don’t have their tuition and fees already paid and the term is nearly over? I am using Tuition Assistance….haven’t touched my GI Bill. When I do use the GI Bill, as so mamny others are doing, I will receive between 1500 – 1700 per month. I have served 23 years and my brother is also on active duty. I could have retired three years ago; but why? I have a job with great benefits and pay….compare them…..really! There will always be liars… recruiters, parents, preachers, teachers and….let’s not forget the applicants. There is always a chance of being killed. I was driving home from work yesterday when a driver decided to overtake me on the right as I proceeded into my right turn off of the highway. He asumed, I believe, that I was turning left…the right blinker must have confused him. I don’t know if it was the sun in his eyes or the fact he was travelling about 90 MPH…but he could have surely killed me. It’s safer on the ships. Come on folks…..our starting pay is public knowledge. Our benefits are governed by the VA…not Army, Navy, Air Force or Marines. Let your kids become men and women….. If you serve, Thanks! If you choose not to serve, Thanks! Isn’t Freedom a blessing?

  27. MilitarySlaughtersPoorKids Says:

    Unfortunately, a lot of current and prior military have gotten caught in the trap of military lies and deceit! These people have TOO MUCH pride and will not stand up and admit that the military DENIES BENEFITS for any possible reason. They feel duped and ashamed of their stupidity; therefore they want you to join in their misery! MISERY LOVES COMPANY! Why are there so many homeless veterans on the streets of any given city if all they had to do was go to school courtesy of the GI Bill? Recruiters LIE! The money allotted by the GI Bill (which you have to pay into) isn’t enough to scratch the surface of a 4-year stay at a university! There is NO such thing as a PART-TIME WAR! You will go to war and the possibility of dying is very real! 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks a year of bullshit! Guardsmen make up OVER 50% of the soldiers & troops deployed to war zones! Since when is 6-18 months of dodging bullets considered “part-time”? IF you join the military–YOU WILL LOSE! Don’t say you weren’t warned!

    • Army Wife Says:

      You must have been denied entry into the military. It’s okay, everyone who can’t get in gets pissed off. It’s because the military is so wonderful and you can’t be a part of it. You must be a loser!

  28. U.S. Citizen Says:

    Look at all the army guys getting cheesed off. If you were any smarter, you would not post your names with affiliation to the army because you already show bias. And its especially idiotic to do so while responding to an article that calls you guys liars. It is also stated that you guys have a motive to lie because you didn’t meet your quotas for the given years…I don’t think anyone who just finished reading the article is going to believe what you say…even if its true.

    Oh and by the way, just because you “know a lot of guys” who reaped the benefits of the military, statistically speaking, they are just the minority…

    • Sgtcooter Says:

      Let me get this straight, you read an article on the INTERNET, and you automatically assume it’s true? Huh, I never knew everthing online was true! You probably think strippers actually like you too.

    • SFC Jay W. Says:

      The ones that claim they are lied to are the jackasses that get good Soldiers killed, and then come back and cry PTSD when the turds never left the FOB. I have been in for 15 years, and have loved every minute of it. If you are too stupid to know that every enlistee has the potential to deploy, the bonus is because you are signing a contract for “x” amount of years, so if you do not complete the contract, you pay it back, so it is not a loan, it is just like every other contract you sign in this country, and lastly, the Army is not an easy job, if you do not like authority or doing what you told or you are one of those jerks that call in sick all the time, then it is simple, DON’T VOLUNTEER!!!! For those who do sign up, enjoy the brotherhood, education and insurance benefits, and a rewarding job you can be proud of. (P.S. I am not a recruiter or have never been one, I am a combat arms NCO that has led troops into battle on 5 different deployments.)

  29. Hypocritical Says:

    Haha, I find it funny that a lot of these high brow and sophisticated army people are calling American citizens pussies and wimps. Just to let you guys know, you are fighting for us, for our rights to be what we want and say what we want, even if that means bashing on you guys for being both idiots and illiterates. Therefore, no matter what you say or call us, you make yourselves look bad! Jokes on you!

  30. Dustin Says:

    This is bull shit….I enlisted recently and it was because I wanted too. I fully know the danger I am putting myself. You act like a recruiter is out to trap Americans into something they don’t want to do. Believe it or not some of do not do it for the benefit to ourselves. It’s of our country and the ones we love who that live in it. Yeah it’s not going to be perfect, but most people who enlist speak to more than just a recruiter about. Including a lot of veterans. Most of which will say that it’s a good thing and they were nothing but proud to serve their country. I don’t have all day to sit here and rant, but be make it known that military service isn’t a big scheme to steal years of peoples lives with no benefit.

  31. frank Says:

    The US military is probally the single most selfless decision any man or woman can do for there country. In no way should any negative light be fabricated on this topic to get web traffic or sell books.I have alot of friends who are currently in or out of the services and even though it was hard for all involed. None of them regret it but feel they are better b.c of it.
    Recruiters can tell you anything i suppose.. truth or lie but what they don’t do is MAKE YOU JOIN. Everyone decided on there own and signs there own name on the line and takes there own oath.I find that most people who bi**h and moan about there military experience are the same people who bi**h and moan about everything that happnes to them. and try to use any excuse to throw blame on someone else.
    It is too easy this day and age to research all you need to know about anything and if you get lied to … you can blame yourself for being informed.safe homecoming to POWMIA and US deployed.

  32. Army Wife Says:

    How funny that the very people you attack on this website are the ones who fight for your right to do so! I can only imagine what type of person you are. Do you sit at home late at night upset because you lost your job? Do you get mad when you go to the doctor because you have to pay so much? Does no one want to date you because you are a fat fuck? Well, if you joined the military, you’d have a steady job (which I doubt you could perform), no payment when you went to the doctor (and I’m sure you go alot because of those numerous STD’s that you have contracted from homosexual encounters) and you’d be fit from all the PT that you do (although your fat ass would probably not make it through the first 1 mile run). You are sickening and a disgrace to our country. My husband fights to get rid of assholes like you. I hope that your website creates a following that one day your children fall into, and that they are no longer protected by the U.S. military. If you don’t stand behind our troops, then take your fat ass and stand in front of them.

    • Abused Army Wife Says:

      Your a disgrace to the us army. Your supposed to represent a soldier’s spouse and the filth that comes out of your mouth is disgusting. Your Husband Married the Military First. And He’ll let you know this time and time again.

      • Army Wife Says:

        Your a disgrace for not being able to keep your marriage together! You needed the counseling. I have been an Army spouse for 10 years and have been through 5 deployments! My husband returned fine from them all and our marriage is stronger because of the time we’ve spent apart. We learned new ways to communicate with each other and that only brought us closer to each other. If you would learn that communication and love is the key to a good marriage, yours would work too! Yes, my husband married the Army first. He was in for 5 years before we ever met. But he has learned to balance Army and family quite nicely. And I don’t sit around waiting for him to come home. I go out and do things with my 2 beautiful children.

    • Not a Fat ass Says:

      Wow- you’re a horrible person. You’re rude and disrespectful. I run 5 miles a day and am in no way a fat ass. I’m am not against those that choose to defend our country. But I am against killing innocent women and children. You are a simple minded, ignorant, bigoted individual. My guess is you’re barely educated, a homophobic, half-assed hypocritical christian who can’t think for your self. You spew regurgitated bullshit that you’ve heard elsewhere. It’s a fact- recruiters lie. Someone who doesn’t wish to join the military isn’t a “pussy,” nor are they “homos,” or “fatasses.” Also- abused Army wife is not a disgrace. Another fact- PTSD is an issue in military men and women returning from war zones. PTSD needs to be treated and if some one is being abused- they need to remove themselves from the situation. (Congrats abused Army Wife for getting out!) If you husband hasn’t been affected by PTSD, then congrats to you because you are one of the lucky ones. Go out, read, get informed instead of being a ranting mouth who spews negativity.

      • SFC Jay W. Says:

        Here is a thought, as leaders we cannot control every turd that slips through the cracks of enlistment. There are some Soldiers out there that do murder innocent people, steal, rape, do drugs, and so forth. But you cannot hold every Soldier accountable for those idiot’s behavior. And just like every society (military is a society) there are these turds. Lets talk about the thousands of murders that happen each day by wanna be thugs, drunk drivers, and psychopaths, but we do not hold US Citizens in low regard because of this. Just a thought.

      • pfc Says:

        Why do they have to be christians? You have a problem with christians? By the way your welcome for your freedom.

    • LoveBeingAnArmyWife Says:

      I completely agree with ArmyWife, i will say not everyone is a fatass but if you cant take being an army wife you shouldnt have tried in the first place, my husband is on his 3rd deployment in 6 years and was on medivac so he has ssen his share of bad things and has a very bad case or PTSD just diagnosed from his doc. A responsible military man who loves his country and family woulnt hit his wife even with PTSD. If you really loved your husband you would have gone to his c.o. to tell him and not sat back and complained (they would ahve made him go to councelling) If not what was the point of til death do us part. My husband also says he will go back to a-stan in a heartbeat to help other people. I will admit there are some bad military people who do bad things but that is rare and they get in trouble for it. I hate when my husband is gone but I knew what i was getting into and i wouldnt change it for anything. We have extremely good benifits for the whole family. Recruiting isnt a fun job from what I hear but they dont get a choice. They’re serving like every 18 year old boy should and women if they want. I think they should bring the draft back, its a maturity thing, most people who go into the military immature leave completely opposite. And the people who do go in know what they are in for. Were in the middle of a war and its going to continue even though people are getting caught, and its a statistical fact that there is a war every 10 years so even when this one ends a new one will start. There will always be military and war and never peace its just not going to happen so you can be one of the people fighting to win on our side and help those in need or you can be a pussy and complain about those doing something either way complaining is a waste of time and effort so you should just give up. ARMY IS AWESOME AND I THANK ALL MILITARY MEN FOR THEIR SACRIFICES

  33. shut p Says:

    please stop, youll flood new orleans with filthy hippy tears

  34. wow Says:

    wow…i just threw up a little from reading this….sad website
    whats its like, in those little coffee shops, with no job commenting on the real world?
    Is the “Im different on my one speed bike with girls jeans/ struggling artist, parents still pay my rent..” crowd this bored these days?

    Your parents should have had an abortion.
    And thank god that you are not actually influential in anway in the real world of government….

  35. Melinda Says:

    I used to be one who fully supported our troops until my brother joined. I now realize what they have to go through and I cannot understand why any man/woman does it. I don’t support our men/women going into war and coming back with mental disorders or worse, dead. War is not the solution to our problems.

    The uncle of my cousin’s husband suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder and his son simply flashed a flashlight at him one day and he went nuts on him, beating his own son up. Then his wife came up to him one day just to touch him, and he threw her to the floor.

    I feel that it’s just not worth it. My brother is only 20 years old, he joined the Marines right out of high school. A recruiter “befriended” my brother and he always wanted to go jogging with my brother. I firmly believe that my brother was brainwashed by that man. My brother’s attitude totally changed after being around this guy, and he felt as though he couldn’t be a man unless he joined. I firmly believe the recruiter told my brother that. So no, I don’t support my brother in the decision that he made. My brother was so intelligent, made honor roll countless times whilst in school, and he threw it all away to join the Marines. He could have went to college and been the first man out of our entire family to get a college education. It’s sad, but it happens often here in Tennessee. The recruiters are always allowed to prey on the impressionable.

  36. you are stupid Says:

    you all are all retarded fucks look at yourselfs argueing about the damn military what the fuck is wrong with yall go get a life LAUGH MY ASS OFF you just made my laugh of the day with your stupidity

    thanks for making my day

    army wife

    and

    abused army wife

    laugh my fucking ass off

    hahahahhaahhaha

    some more stupid bitches lol

  37. you are stupid Says:

    you all are all retarded fucks look at yourselfs argueing about the damn military what the fuck is wrong with yall go get a life LAUGH MY ASS OFF you just made my laugh of the day with your stupidity

    thanks for making my day

    army wife

    and

    abused army wife

    laugh my fucking ass off

    hahahahhaahhaha

    some more stupid bitches lol

  38. Actual Recruiter Says:

    Well, to begin I’ll say most of your “facts” are wrong. I am an Army recruiter. Does this make me biased? Nope! Ready to hear why? Because I don’t like being one for the purpose of putting people in boots. I like being one to help these kids that have no idea what they are going to do after high school.

    I encourage kids to make a plan. Whether that plan is military or not. If any of my hs kids need help finding grants for college I have sat with them and found them some. For me it’s not about numbers. I don’t lie or force kids to join. I tell them the pros and cons. My people are probably the most informed recruits. In fact I have gotten in trouble over not writing people. does this hurt me? Heck no! Why? Because I know if I talked to the kids and they either don’t want to join or they want to think about it then I have that moral capacity to respect them and let them make their decision. Btw I haven’t made my rank and not had any butt chewings.

    I tell everyone I talk to not to trust me. Why would I do this? Because it’s their life, not mine. I tell them to double check everything I tell them. If they come on a website like this and ask me the same questions then great. That means they did research. Sad part is the things written on here are false. I have had three of my soldiers take advantage of the post 9-11 gi bill. They are happily going to college and say it’s the best program ever. Btw two of them had went to college and knew what it felt like to struggle.

    The kids in my area even like to talk to me before they join any other branch. I will happily take them to the office and sit with them while the other recruiter talks to them. I am unbiased in the aspect of the different branches. I will say this and no dissrespect but the national guard is useless. Not the people the branch. It should be a reserve and funded by the government. The states deploy them too often for personal gains.

    Lastly, if you are in the military and you are bashing these people with foul language and stupid “I’ll kick your ass” things then shame on you. Act professional. Don’t give them the benefit. Most of the people that talk bad about the military either couldn’t get in or were kicked out. This is a great statistic because 10 out of 10 that I talk to about why they hate it ended up getting kicked out because they did something stupid and got caught. It’s always, the military screwed me over and I didn’t get my bonus. When I ask how they say well I didn’t serve my whole time cause I got kicked out for smoking pot. But they should have let me stay in or keep my money. If you are given a loan and you don’t finish paying for it should you still be able to keep it? No. Let’s get real.

    Sorry, one more thing. Recruiters do not make extra cash for meeting a quota. Last year they did away with the bonus of putting people in. I laugh when I hear these comments on how I want them in to make some money. 1. I get my paycheck no matter what. 2. The bonuses they did give were if you put in 3 people or more in a month. And boy! They were big cash payments. 100$ for 3 people. I would love to have done paperwork for 3 people and worked my butt off to get an extra 100$. Hmmmm I don’t think so. But that program is gone. So stop worrying about that one.

    Have a great day and I can’t wait to see the next comments. God Bless!

    • Sgtcooter Says:

      I hear ya brother! People complain cause something didn’t go right in their lives. Must be a tough life when the only time something “bad” happen to you was military related. Not everyone can live in lollypop and rainbow land. Believe it or not people there are good recruiters out there.

      -fellow recruiter-

    • Chris jones Says:

      The National Guard is the oldest branch and it is funded by the government

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  40. Sgtcooter Says:

    As a recruiter I love reading this stuff. One thing I learned a long time ago was to learn your “enemy.” I wanted to know what negative media there was out there about the military. And WOW there is a ton. But with all the negativity out there about evil recruiters, one thing is the same on every page, it’s all crap. None of it’s true. It’s stuff people heard from their sisters, friends, uncles, cousins, neighbor. The only way you would know the FACTS is if you were or are in the military. And you complain about how the military screwed you over, it’s your own doing. You were probably overweight, couldn’t pass a PT test or did drugs. Oh, and if you didn’t get the college benfits you were suppose to, again your fault. The guidlines are in your contract, and you signed it withouth reading it. “My recruiter lied to me!” Let me get this straight, you signed away X amount of years to the military, and you didn’t do your own research?! Ever lie to your parents, friends, boyfriend, girlfriend? Betcha have. Yes there are crappy recruiters out there. But people act like the military is the only organization on the planet that lies. Prime example, almost every woman I know puts on their drivers license that they weigh 130 lbs. Go ask to see some, you’ll be amazed. If your license says 130 and you look like you are pushing 180, people are going to notice. Nobody is going to look at the license and say wow 130 huh, who knew. People lie, it’s human nature.

    Summing it up, why don’t you do your own research, join, get your benefits and everyting else in your contract, get out and then post something. If you think the military is evil, join and try to change it. If you’re not part of the solution you’re part of the problem.

    • RON Says:

      YOUR RIGHT EVERYBODY DOES LIE. THATS WHY I THINK THAT MAKING ANY FALSE STATEMENTS ABOUT THINGS ON THE INTERNET ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE LIES ABOUT THE MILITARY SHOULD HOLD SOME TYPE OF PUNISHMENT. DON’T YOU AGREE. I SOME TIMES THINK IF THIS IS AN INFORMATION WAR BEING WAGED AGAINST THE U.S. MILITARY. I’M SURE YOU WOULD AGREE WHEN I SAY A PSYOP. THINK ABOUT IT. IF THEIR IS NO SOLDIERS TO FIGHT. THE ENEMY CAN JUST TAKE OVER WITH EASE. THE ENEMY CAN’T BEAT THE U.S. MILITARY HEAD ON. UNCONVENTIONAL WARFARE.

  41. John Says:

    Recruiters lie. The entire military is populated by liars, thugs, geeks, and bureaucrats.

    Resist!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  43. John Says:

    Yep! This is totally true.

    I’ve had relatives go into the army after a recruiting promised them so many things they did not get. “We’ll pay your bills, we’ll buy you a house” didn’t work for them, and they were not in it 4 years, try 8 YEARS wasted. Then they get out and didn’t get the jobs they were promised. As they usually say “Ask me, don’t ask the recruiter.” when someone mentions to them about going into the service.

    • Gus Says:

      John, your family fucked up not the military. The guidelines to get what you want are very clear, you need an honorable discharge to get access to the G.I. Bill, you gotta be in shape or else you wont get your promotion etc. basically what they are is college drop outs. they pay all that money but never graduate so they never get that job or anything that college/university promised them. except in their case it was time wasted not money, but hey at least they got paid while they cried because they had to do something like pick up trash or they got yelled at, boo hoo :(

  44. mason Says:

    There is this recruiter in my class right now and he couldn’t get through my questions. He was fidgeting and sweating and all I could do was laugh….. HAHAHAHA

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  46. Everett Says:

    If you haven’t experienced the military, stop giving us your opinion.

    –The Battle Buddy system –
    Me and a friend were supposed to go through Infantry school together, etc. (I still have the papers saying it).
    They trained him separately (two buildings down), and sent him to Italy then Afghanistan.
    I, on the other hand was sent to FUCKING KOREA!
    (Complaining only got me smoked like a “POS private” that doesn’t know shit)

    **OPPOSITE ENDS OF THE EARTH, ARMY “BATTLE BUDDY SYSTEM” was a BLATANT LIE!

    -Being combat infantry, 111 GT score; and never being deployed.
    My brother joined 2 weeks after me and got stuck in Iraq twice, and Korea for a year. Out of his 3 year enlistment; almost all was overseas. Out of mine, only 1 year (Gay ass Korea). After that I was sent back CONUS and barred from deploying again.. They wanted to use me in testing all the new DARPA; future tech crap for the military. Spin out anyone? Yea…

    **Working in Operations (s-3) watching million dollar investments either:
    Fly away in the wind
    Get stepped on/drove on/smashed
    not work
    NONE OF IT FUCKING WORKED!
    YOU STUPID AS AMERICAN CITIZENS DON’T HAVE A FUCKING CLUE!
    We blew so many american tax dollars; pointlessly… continually

    –Pissed hot for weed (Fort Bliss anyone?) – Yet… the EXACT same day I received two awards from our Battalion CO. One commending me for being such an asset to our unit. The other one I received was for maintaining the HIGHEST fitness score in our battalion (11:10 Two miles?.. …)(Combat arms battalion..)
    The other soldiers I was with got strict UCMJ (kicked out); their lives = fucked.

    **For me they just did the whole “Lets loose his papers.. ..make him work for 45 days”.. shit I had 4 months left, I didn’t care. I lied and told everyone I was re-enlisting. “Hell yea, Re-up!” just so that I could see the look on their face when I gave everyone the bird and said FUCK OFF! Hahaha it was priceless; they laughed thinking I was joking.

    So I kept smoking pot and no one stopped me from that point on

    — GI Bill is fair eh? I was told “Free College”, it is October 24; and I signed up for the GI bill before August 29. TWO FUCKING MONTHS?
    NOT OF FREE COLLEGE!
    So , FUCK EVERYONE that is PRO- GI bill, it worked out for you congrats; but the majority of us are getting ass raped (Private-Specialist for sure)

    ** If I owe the government money, they are on my ass in a second.
    If the government owes me money, so what? Deal?

    This is what you are all telling me with all the “Pro” military crap.
    Fucking idiots, don’t you realize that every country we invade creates collateral damage that in turn causes more conflict, more $, and more lives than needed. We aren’t “preventing” shit; they’ve radicalized more than enough americans and muslims that we need to admit we’ve lost.

    Say what you want, I fucking lived it bitches.
    I got to see everyone I know and care about get fucked over financially, socially, and psychologically.
    Explains why my medics were always doing heroin!

    In the middle of writing this, I received a message from my ole battle buddy in Afghanistan! FUCK THIS COUNTRYYYYY

    Oh and lastly (because trust me, I could go on about this forever with the bull shit I tasted):
    Korean Juicy girls,…. the filipino ones…. are being used in whore houses like nothing in Korea. No one cares, they just abuse them. If anything, our government condones it just as well as the koreans.

    I am ashamed to call myself an american, I am very ashamed.

    May all the pacifist be assasinated:
    MLK
    Ghandi
    R. Kennedy

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  61. Pvt. Says:

    I just want to put this out there. I just enlisted in the army. I did my own research before even talking to a recruiter. Everything I was told by them was the same as my research. I didn’t feel lied or pressured. But my story is this, last night I was walking downtown and this homeless man was asking for change, I gave him some when he noticed I was wearing an army shirt. He asked and I told him I was about to leave for basic. He said good for me, he said he served for a few years. He told me take to take advantage of going to school, he told me to take classes because they would be available to me. He told me he was in his position now (living under a highway bridge) because HE CHOSE not to do anything useful with his time in the army. He told me he made bad choices and was DISHONORABLY discharged. He didn’t tell how big and bad the army was or how I would end up like him. He told told me that it would benefit me if I did it right. THE WORDS OF A DISHONORABLY DISCHARGED HOMELESS VETERAN were more swaying than anything any recruiter told me. Say what you want about recruiters. If you keep your shit straight and together and stay in good standing keep up with training and tests. I’m pretty sure you’ll get what you want out of the military

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  63. Purreee Ignorance Says:

    Hey hippies, take a chill pill. If you sign a contract with the army and don’t read it, don’t get all upset that things aren’t the way you imagined. Being in the army is a lot of trash cleanup and bs for while, but also a test of character. (Sorry, life isn’t a movie) The post 9/11 gi bill is an outstanding education benefit, and signing bonuses are not “loans”. Of course you have to adhere to your contract. The strength of the army relies upon holding individuals to higher standard. The medical coverage is good too btw. The author of this article will never understand what it means to serve honorably, but will always reap the reward given by the sacrifices of better men and women. As for this theory of the exploited poor, grow up. Life isn’t roses working two different jobs in the civilian world either, so quit spewing that bs. The armed forces offers a hard-earned opportunity, but its always about a higher purpose regardless of your personal economic circumstances. This article is a clear manifestation of the entitlement attitude that pervades our disgustingly bloated country. All this coming from a lifelong democrat and supporter of social programs. You spineless pricks need to look to politicians to fix our ‘system’, instead of perpetuating lies about those in uniform.

  64. RON Says:

    THANKS TO ALL OUR TROOPS DESPITE UPUR POINT OF VIEW. IM THINKING ABOUT JOINING. I HAVE BEEN DOING MY RESEARCH & HAVE FOUND DOCUMENTED FACT THAT A SOLDIER DIES IN IRAQ EVERY DAY IN A HALF. BUT WHAT’S MORE ALARMING IS THAT WHEN THEY COME BACK A SOLDIER COMMITES SUICIDE EVERY 80 MINS. SO IN OTHER WORDS WE ARE LOOSING MORE SOLDIERS HERE AT HOME THEN WE ARE AT WAR. I THINK THAT SOLDIERS & CITIZENS ARE BOTH ON THE SAME BOAT. IT’S THE POLITICIANS AT THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN THAT ARE SCREWING US ALL OVER.

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  66. this guy Says:

    This whole thing is funny in a way. One person telling lies to another person. It doesn’t matter if your a civilian or choose to join the military, your gonna get lied to one way or another. Nothing is perfect. There is a thing called Destiny (The hidden power believed to control what will happen) Recruiters don’t control your destiny, YOU DO! I am a Recruiter for the Army, very recent one, and I can tell you there are recruiters out there that havn’t told the whole truth and have said the wrong things, but not all recruiters are like that, just like this website doesn’t tell the whole truth. I will tell you I can’t control whether you are gonna deploy to some foreign land in the next 8 years, its a possibility. I can’t gaurantee you won’t die tomorrow walking home either. Being in the Army for almost 14 years now, I have seen the benefits change and get better. And honestly they have gotten better. YOU choose what benefits you want to use, you make your own decisions as far as what you want to do with yourself and where you want to be. And if you don’t fullfill your contract that is clear in writing, you won’t get those benefits. Yes, if you get a less then honorable discharge (which is difficult to get, you have to do something really bad) you won’t get your GI Bill benefits. The GI BIll right now is over $53,000 for college, and you still pay a measily $1200, for $53,000 if you choose to use it. The Department of Defense has seriously ramped up its efforts to educate Soldiers on using their GI Bill and making it better and easier for them to use. If I don’t use it, my wife or kids can use it, something I have earned, and was not gauranteed. Current;y the military is drawing down, so recruiters won’t be out there trying to be slick to get you in the Army (definately not this one) I don’t need to lie to you, if you don’t feel you need the Army to help you achieve what you want to in life then so be it, we don’t need you. The standards have been raised, there are waivers for criminals (good luck getting one approved), if you don’t have a high school diploma, we don’t need you, Just understand not all recruiters are bad people, some of us are really out there with your best interest in mind and really want to help you do something with your life. If you have a good plan, and your recruiter helps you with that plan, and your disciplined enough to stick to that plan, your goals in life will be easy to achieve through the Army with a little bit of sacrifice and hard work. It really doesn’t matter what job you choose in the Army, as long as you know what you want to do and be and how to get there. A lot of people want to blame the military for there own failures, and on the inside they really know, they are just week minded and using ptsd or soemthing else for an excuse. If they could go back in time, they would have sacrificed a little more, did what they had to do, they still can, but they believe their own lie. You have a responsibility to yourself, to take care of yourself and fullfill your OWN destiny, nobody is going to do it for you, its a cut-throat world, deal with it. To all the Recruiters who read this, this is why you must tell the truth, don’t give them any excuses as to why the failed themselves. Anything that happens to you in the military can happen to you as a civilian, and if it wasn’t for the 1% that volunteers to serve and the ones that were voluntold to serve, you all would probably be speaking German right now, or be the Unites States of China where you wouldn’t be allowed to even have a website like this. United we stand, freedom isn’t free and quit your crying.

  67. SGT-G Says:

    To anyone thats reading through this and decides the military is not for them then its not. the type of people that make it in the military are the people the would get their live for their country and the ones they love. No offense but if you a family member of a soldier then you still don’t truely understand the bond they share with their country, the people in it, the people they serve with, or even you. Like any job it has its low points and everyone in it maybe counting the days til they finish the service but not a single one of the will every say the didn’t serve. Me personally, i would gladly die for anyone that wants my protection. whether they are a member of my country or not. from the child playing in the park to the thug on the street. Call it faith call it naive but something like that is an honor that i hold higher than any other. why the thug you might ask because its simple acts of kindness everyday that change people. Yes i will serve my country and others regardless of the benefits, no matter the losses i chance because it is the right thing to do.
    In addition, military contracts are like any other contract. I not gonna say you get everything promised but if its in your contract you have rights to it if your willing the make they effort. but make sure your read everything in the contract word for word. No one holds a gun to your head and makes you sign.

  68. civilian Says:

    reading all this i see the points of both arguments from the recrutiers and the civys but lets be honest folks ya the military lies they do shit they arnt supposed to as does the goverment and for those of you who are going to rant and rave about what i post i was in the military at one point in time and i got a normal discharge but as i was saying it happens recrutiers do lie but come on parents lie as well recrutiers and some parents pressure most likely unintential for the recruiters to get kids to join i knw i know that some recruiters out there lie their asses off and from iv seen actual is one of the few that doesnt seem like a complete bullshiter its possible not everything in this articile is true but folks id wager half of this is true and yes for all you in the military still great wonderful terrific congrats your still alive or havent been deployed or in any way screwed up the military does fuck up it is run by humans its going to fuck up the president is human he is going to fuck up but you know what we the us citizens can make a differance the goverment nor the military controls what we want or our actions if you dont like the way the system is run find a way to change it but people be serious with yourselves the military as well as the citizns have fucked up on numerous occasins so you join good luck i wish you the best if you decide not to congrats as well i wish you the best of luck as well thats all i have to say

    • civilian Says:

      and for those of you that are going to ask i will not tell you my age or the length of time i was in the military

      • civilian Says:

        and also for you parents whoes kids are thinking about joining hep them do the research show them the pros and cons of the military

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  71. Kererra Says:

    I am intrested in the AMEDD… I want to be a nurse in the army and after researching, the army does ans will pay for all my education as long as i am enlisted for at least 3 years and they do have benifits that will support me when i graduate. Yeah recruiters lie about things but thats not the point!!!!! Serving your/ my country is what counts and the army wont leave you homeless or all that junk!!!!! I know alot of people that served and are still serving, they have lots of money, nice houses and are living a great life! Its hard to be in the miltiary but it is deffinitally worth it!

  72. Jeremy Says:

    My girlfriend wants to enlist, all of money reasons. I was upset when one day she wanted to go to MSU, and the next she wants to enlist in the Army merely because of money benefits. Not once has she said “Patriotism.” Then knowing that she is a women and the who sexual harassment statistic. She is only 17; but im going to marry her. I dont want her to go because she wants me to hold on for 4 to 6 years, but i dont know if i can.

    • T Says:

      Jeremy if your girlfriend only wants to join for money she should not join the military. If you do the math, soldiers serving overseas on active duty hardly make more than minimum wage. sounds like your girlfriend is bored. Maybe you two should start saving up for a kick ass vacation together. What branch is she signing up for?.

  73. Gray Says:

    Just another ignorant liberal who thinks no one will ever attack the United States if we give up our military. Everything will be just fine. This isn’t a perfect world.
    Though you make a few valid points, I see many errors in your information. No system is perfect. Not everyone in the whole United States can always get what they want.

  74. cassandra Says:

    The only thing I seen that was sad is the 33% of veterans who are homeless, thats horrible but I can proudly say I try to help support them by sending money I know I dont make much but why not, Im single and have no kids at the moment and I figure well I have an extra 50 dollars that can provide something for those men because I know they served and protect us here in a america, so why would I give back money I work for you ask because of them I wouldnt be here today or have my job, they worked to protect my A$$ to have my freedom now so thats why I help, I was just shocked to find out thats how many true veterans that are homeless, its shocking that there is that many men out on the streets after they served and protected our country, so my point is why would you bring up how many of them are on the streets and complain why their there or how they got there, and instead why dont you do the right thing and try to support them and get them off the streets!! Its horrible you took the time to find out how many of those poor guys are on the streets but didnt take the time to sign up and give them the helping hand they deserve and HELP send some money to try and support them and make sure they have a warm place and food in their tummys or any other help they need, Thats all I have to say…

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  76. Army Recruiter Says:

    I have been an Army recruiter for the last 8 years. This entire website is based on lies and is very misleading. The website uses half-truths and distorts the realities of recruiting. Are there some recruiters that lie? Yes. Find me one example of sales where EVERY salesman in completely honest. It doesn’t happen. The military is a cross-section of our country. Not every person that enlists is honorable and upholds values. If you found this website because you are anti-military, you don’t have anything to worry about anyway. Tell the recruiters you aren’t interessted. If you came to this site because you already enlisted and want to get out of your contract, piss on you for not doing your homework ahead of time. There are countless places to find out the truth about military contracts. If you don’t do your own research, you have nobody to blame but yourself. I will leave on this note and it’s been said several times. Those that run these websites are really playing with fire. What do you think will happen if you succeed at preventing the miltary from filling its ranks? Do you think they are just going to accept operating at 50% or 60% or even 75%? No. They WILL implement the draft and many of YOU will be drafted. You morons are insulting those people that have decided to serve. Your efforts are aimed at the wrong people. It is our elected CIVILIAN leaders that decided when to engage in armed conflicts. Why don’t you work on replacing those people? Those are the people that spend our tax money and commit us to war.

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    Do it! Both the Democratic and the Republican parties are garbage.
    Our economy will keep declining until we the people form a new and better one. Both parties have sold out America, but for different reasons. Don’t argue now. Read both those books: then you won’t be arguing, you will be joining me. God Bless!

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    God just shutup, everybody. If you want to serve then serve, if you don’t then don’t. A lot of people have served in the military. At one point in US history it was so common no one was perched on pedestals talking about how they fought for this in that. We are fortunate we no longer have a draft. When the US goes to war we all go to war in one way or another. The government has led it’s military into conflicts that we probably should have never been involved in…(Vietnam, Irag) do we need to sit here and decide who’s more gung ho and patriotic, or do we need to figure out what we are truly fighting for by educating ourselves as to what’s really going on? I support miliitary and non military members alike, I do not support the cronyism, elitism, and ignorance of Americans that think they’re doing each other some sort of favor.

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  110. carolsolano001 Says:

    Thanks for sharing this with the world. You are saving lives and a lot of sorrow.

    People who are already in the military are brain washed. Most of them can’t even find jobs when they go back home. Stop saying there will be a draft, if theres a draft, we can walk to the white house protest by the millions to save our men.

    Get an education, not because it guarantees a job, but because you’ll learn about the world. Go to college to learn about the world and then find a way to make a living with your knowledge. Try living below your means and get as little debt as possible.

    IF you are considering to enlist please do your research.

    WATCH THE MOVIE “BORN ON FOURTH OF JULY” no I am not advertising, its an excellent award winning film that shows that wars are a business. For oil or just to sell weapons. $$$.

    My ex was in the military and yes he became a man but also got a lot of traumas from the experiences in war. You can become a man with time, be patient and observant. Please don’t do it.

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    • carolsolano001 Says:

      I forgot to add that we do need a military to defend the country from invaders. But not one that goes and invades for oil or just to give people jobs they other wise wouldn’t have.

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